“Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones” at Galerie Perrotin in Paris is American artist Mel Ziegler’s first solo exhibition in France. It includes a selection of new and recent works by Ziegler as well as works from his influential collaboration with his late partner Kate Ericson.Ziegler collaborated with Ericson from the late 1970s until her premature death in 1995 from brain cancer. The “social practice” duo became known for their distinctly American, community-based projects that synthesized conceptual, Land art, and interventionist strategies. Ziegler’s solo practice emerged out of the strategies and concerns of his collaborations with Ericson, and over time has loosened “formally and methodologically to allow for a new degree of humor, serendipity, and a certain craftiness to enter his work,” according to Galerie Perrotin.The works in “Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones” reveal the maturity of Ziegler’s solo practice. Although he continues to be influenced by his collaborations with Ericson, he has the confidence to create works that play with as well as against the duo’s earlier iconic participatory projectsBLOUIN ARTINFO got in touch Ziegler and asked him some questions about his exhibition at Galerie Perrotin, the development of his solo practice, and“Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones” is an interesting title for your solo exhibition at Galerie Perrotin in Paris. Could you explain the significance of the title and what it reveals about the works in the exhibition?The title comes from “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.” Though this statement has its historic origins I prefer to think about its use as a playground retort to someone who is verbally taunting another. It was a harmless way of dispelling the mean teasing one receives by playground bullies. My main reason for using it was to be able to generate a discussion about aggression and or pacifying such aggressions without the use of force. I think the whole show hovers around aggression, play and misguided notions of selfish individualism and ideologies. The show sets up strange and unusual dichotomies of aggressive materials and acts while moving in and out of notions of fun, play and recreation.You have successfully pursued a solo practice since Kate’s death. How did you approach the transition from a collaborative practice to a solo practice? I can’t say it has always been easy. After Kate passed away very few people in the art world were open to working with me as an individual and accept that the Ericson and Ziegler duo had ended. It was a slap in the face to say the least. I had to work hard at rebuilding my career. Psychologically it was difficult as well. Kate and I had an amazing working relationship with lots of dialogue as we developed ideas. I lost all that. As an individual artist, having a discussion with myself, I could always talk myself out of everything I wanted to do. I found myself trying to pull curators into my dialogue. Some were ok with that while others felt uneasy and resisted. I am a collaborator by nature so finding ways to pursue that became crucial to developing new ideas and work. It is great working with Galerie Perrotin because I have an assigned gallery person whom I, in essence, am continually collaborating with. It works for me. I also now have a family. They often are the basis for my collaborations in the gallery work I do.In what ways does your solo practice reflect your past collaborative practice with Kate? How did your solo practice emerge from your collaborative practice and how has your solo practice changed and matured in recent years?The historic entity of Kate Ericson and Mel Ziegler is a closed entity. There will never be another Kate Ericson and Mel Ziegler work. I only really discovered that when I worked with Ian Berry and Bill Arning in putting together our retrospective “America Starts Here”. I suddenly discovered the power of that collaboration. When Kate was sick she wanted me to continue the name “Kate Eriscon and Mel Ziegler” but I felt it didn’t honor her and her input if I did so. We actually had this discussion knowing her illness was terminal. Starting out as “Mel Ziegler” was tough. Initially I decided a few of our overriding ideas needed to be closed down; such as working with the notion of house and home. I figured our last piece we completed together, “From The Making of a House” said all this series of works needed to say. There was closure.We also had some very strict working methodologies that I felt had manifest in such a way that they no longer needed to be pursued in such strict ways. As a team we had made our point in this regard. Most importantly was our conviction to using existing forms and conventions of place. We called it an “integrated practice” rather than “social practice” as it is now most commonly called. All art is social but not all art is integrated into the social. Kate and I had lectured quite extensively across the United States at many art schools and universities. Our ideas had been catching on with young artist. Collaborations with communities is now very common. When you look around and see ideas and language pretty close to your own you suddenly start looking for something new. At least that is how I found myself working.Consequently, I dropped a lot of our restrictions. This allowed me to do things we, as a team, would probably have never done. I will say that for the first few years I even dropped working with community. I needed to be private for a while. That was difficult and it didn’t take me long to realize I needed that connection to community. So what you are not seeing here and because I need to update my website the community projects are not represented.I continue community oriented works such as “Breathe In, Breathe Out” where I collected over 4,000 samples of community breath in one big air tank and dispersed that air/breath in pragmatic things around Salina, Kansas like car tires and the footballs team’s actual play football.Another was in downtown Houston called “Downtown Mixer” where I asked people from eight different high rises to blow up balloons and draw a self-portrait on them. These balloons were color coded for each high-rise building. I reinstalled the portrait balloons all mixed together in all eight buildings, thus mixing the portraits and breath since the balloons eventually de-inflate and collapse.I would also say that “Stuffed”, where I stuffed straw in actual store display cabinets, was community oriented as it required a group effort throughout the shopping district of Vienna to actually manifest as a project.I guess I am pointing out that the works in the show often come out of the ideas of these larger projects. The collected tattered flags, (“Flag Exchange”) or the agricultural prints are all results of something larger and in situ, responding to place and relationships with people.According to Galerie Perrotin, over time your work has “loosened formally and methodologically, allowing for a new degree of humor, serendipity, and a certain craftiness to enter his work.” What was the catalyst for this development in your practice and how does it manifest in your current work?My methodology has certainly loosened as mentioned in the previous question. I gave myself permission not to be so restrictive in my formal qualities. We were always looking for ways to make work that was in essence already made for us. We really didn’t make objects…. We just found ways to manifest what was already existing. Mapping or paint charts are good examples. Removing windows that are broken and re-installing them in the same pattern. I still work that way but don’t always find strict solutions…. I still use the methodology of finding things and re-presenting them. I now tend to allow myself freedom of the formal aspects…. It’s not always defined for me like a map would have been.What are the primary ideas, concepts, and concerns that drive your current practice and from where do your primary influences originate?I think I am far more directly political than Kate and I have been. Not sure why except that these are times that require artist to be more engaged. Times have changed and the work we were doing in the 80’s was also responding to what was still a modernist dialogue. We weren’t that interested in it except historically. We wanted to step outside of the isolated earth works and art that was “constructed” spaces. We responded to existing social spaces. It was already built for us. We just needed to dissect and respond. I appreciate Galerie Perrotin allowing me to show not such easy work. My interests are slowly turning toward small town America and the concerns and issues there. Like where I grew up. I don’t feel like I have to be in the middle of the art world to do what I do. I think that is maturity in the ideas and work. It’s not about being an art star. It’s about making good art that is meaningful outside of Arthur Danto’s “art world”. That is not to say that I reject that art world….it is just that I am not wanting to be necessarily beholden to it. I am a John Dewey “Art as Experience” type of artist. Always have been.How do you honor your collaborative history with Kate while at the same time assert and establish your own individual solo practice?I am very proud to have worked on the Kate Ericson and Mel Ziegler “America Starts Here” catalogue and exhibition. I promised her while she was literally on her death bed that I would be sure to honor her work with a beautiful catalogue. I think I accomplished that. The exhibition that traveled around the United States was a bonus. There is still more work to be done in this regard.
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